Out of the Fire

This last week or so saw several prominent defections from PKG.  There was also a prominent defection last year shortly after the trial, that of Senior Elder Adrian Gray in New Zealand.  His defection was also notable as he went to Clarion Call David Pack’s RCG and a public announcement was made on one of Pack’s websites with a copy of a letter written by Adrian.

But since then Adrian has thought differently and repented of joining RCG.  The public announcement was removed from Pack’s website.

Adrian has recently sent another letter to a number of PKG members, and I have obtained a copy which is reproduced here:

­­­­­­­­­­­————————————————  Adrian Gray’s letter —————-

Hello to PKG Members,

I understand that a considerable number of you are looking into leaving PKG after Pentecost, with this in mind I need to retract a recommendation I made to you about Restored Church of God.

Nearly one year ago I sent a letter to a number of you, in it I strongly recommended  The Restored Church of God as a church that God is working through his ministry.  After attending, listening and watching I have come to the conclusion that just as there are members with Gods spirit in PKG there are also members in Restored with Gods spirit.

But I do have to retract my recommendation to go to Restored, as there are a number of things that do not sit right. Mr Packs focus on members is to get as much cash from them as possible, he uses not going to the place of safety and hellfire for those who do not give all, and laying up your reward in heaven for those who do give all.  A small portion of what I heard:

  • Take out a mortgage on your house and send the cash in to Restored.
  • Time is short sell your assets and send in the cash
  • Have fundraising events and send in the cash.
  • 1st, 2nd, and third tithe, all on the gross.

Any one that was baptized  in PKG did not have a  valid baptism. I know of one ex PKGer that that went to Restored was not allowed to keep Passover as he was baptized in PKG.

They have what they call a splinter pack for any one coming out of a cog.  It is several hundred pages of reading and many hours of sermons, you have to then be in full agreement with it all before attending services. It is mainly pre 86 worldwide teachings with a few changes, this is a type of indoctrination that slowly draws you in, but once in you see it isn’t like worldwide was nor are some of the teachings.  But for most that get to this point it is to late as their minds have been conditioned to D Packs teachings.

Most doctrine is as taught in Worldwide under Mr Armstrong, but not all.  Changes are classed as new understanding. (present truth type of situation)  A lot of mind control takes place, as one ex Philadelphian member said:: this lot are tougher than in Philadelphia under Flurry.  Never having been in Philadelphia I cannot say if that remark was accurate or not but I would not be surprised if it was.

As you may have guessed by now, my wife and I resigned our membership in Restored and are no longer members of that church.

In conclusion I would say that for those of you looking to move on, please take a long hard look at whoever you are going to. (do not just give up, God is still doing a work in many of you)   This in no ways negates what I said about R Weinland being a false prophet,  it just means D Pack is another wolf in sheep’s clothing to watch out for.

Wishing you all the best.

Adrian Gray.


David Pack has been circling PKG like a —-  well, like a pack of sharks.  Hopefully he will not snare any more departing PKG members.  I hope that PKG members will have learned that it’s best to think for themselves, and not let others do it for them.

40 thoughts on “Out of the Fire

  1. And yet, no one seems to ever look at the obvious: Herbert Armstrong was wrong; he lied; his opinions turned to doctrine were terribly extreme.

    Is Adrian Gray complaining about first, second and third tithe being on gross wages? Why don’t you all search the entirety of the Scriptures to show anywhere that anyone anywhere was required to tithe on wages? It’s nowhere in there. Not a hint. Not a suggestion. It was all on produce… and if you want to get picky, fruit trees were accounted differently and you did not take 10% of the fruit to go to the Feast of Tabernacles.

    Take out a mortgage on your house and send in the cash? Really? Has Adrian Gray not lived through 1972-1973 when we were all supposed to flee to the Place of Safety in Petra in Jordan and instead, Herbert Armstrong sent out a coworker letter “suggesting” the same thing to build The House for God? And does he not remember how many congregations had fund raisers? I remember selling boxes of oranges.

    False prophet? False prophet? FALSE PROPHET? Who said Ronald Weinland had a sole franchise on that? Has he not been reading “The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy?” Has he not read 1975 in Prophecy? Assuredly by this time Adrian has learned of Herbert Armstrong’s prophecies in the 1930s and 1940s, starting with Mussolini becoming the Beast. Where do you think Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ronald Weinland, John Rittenbaugh, United, CoGWA and all the rest got their false prophecies from? If you want a false prophet, start with the dead false prophet that started it all.

    In fact, you all should seriously start examining what you were taught at the Feasts. Did you keep them on the right dates? Or is your calendar wrong? Why would you go to the Jews who have no spiritual understanding to render anything spiritual (according to the precepts of the New Testament)? The Jews themselves know their calendar is wrong. Check it out. (And is Pentecost on a Sunday or is it on a fixed day on the Hebrew calendar — not that we want to give Weinland a free pass because Pentecost is on a different day than the supposed return of Christ which is not going to happen.)

    It’s just one wrong path after another when you buy into the false premise that the Church of God Seventh Day was wrong — as determined by a high school drop out who was chancellor of a college which issued PhDs.

    If you are looking for legitimacy, you are looking in the wrong place: Sharks and wolves are everywhere — they want you to build up their great swelling egos and take your money. That is all you are worth to them. They are all predators.

    But if you want to continue to be prey, go right ahead, but don’t complain when you see the torn clothes wafting away, stained with your own blood as they rip and tear you to pieces.


  2. “Mr Packs focus on members is to get as much cash from them as possible, he uses not going to the place of safety and hellfire for those who do not give all, and laying up your reward in heaven for those who do give all.”

    In some variation or another this is what every COG I have ever seen does. Like I said before, baboons flinging poo at each other.

    If there is any COG minister out there that is not a swindling psychopathic con man and actually believes his own doctrine, let HIM make the first move and lead by example. Sell the house, renounce material possessions, give it to the poor so they can eat, after all, if Christ’s arrival is so immenent you don’t need any of it. Just keep what you need to survive and lose the excess.

    I would MUCH rather worship in the church of a humble country pastor that lives modest, actually participates and loves his community, drives a rusty old truck, sits and talks with a lady getting beat up by her husband instead of shooing her away, encourages members having troubles in life and where needed maybe seeks them some help, instead of threatening them with excommunication out of “Christian love” (gag), ya know, even if that pastor celebrates Christmas (gasp!!! oh gasp!!!) they are far more Christ-like in behavior and disposition than any of these snakes in suits that are literally no different from con artists scamming the elderly by phone or email.

    Adrian you are dumb if you thought moving to another COG would reveal something other than a psychopathic cash machine. But you are right. God is working in individuals. The Creator ACTUALLY cares about people and ya we are in a weird time in society because of free will, but if you are looking to another GURU to save you you’ll just be fleeced of your cash and bullied over and over and over again.

    May God be with any real pastor out there. May the scams collapse and the snakes end up destitute, alone, and shunned from society just as they do to others. Eww. Barf. How about some class action suits to recover cash gained by FRAUD. If God is really with them they have nothing to fear, right?

    It is hard not to get angry at this constant ongoing abuse and extortion of well meaning worshippers.


  3. If I go to a church in the future it will not be Armstrong church. These splinters have done nothing but violence to the LOVE of our God. Extortion and fraud.

    If I am wrong, where is the proof? Where is your God fulfilling your prophecies? Where are the fruits of God being with you? Where are you putting yourself on the line where your mouth is? Ron said he put everythign on the line. Bull. They are quite comfortable (were, until the house built on greed started collapsing). Except he is coming on hard times now if cash dries up. So the fear extortion ramps back up.

    As soon as God backs up any one of you, then youll have some credibility.Until then all the proof is of extortionate fraud.

    And every one of them is doing the same thing and we are supposed to believe one over another. Eww. Barf.


  4. Well, I give the guy some credit for being honest about his experience with Pack. Hopefully he’s learning to examine these guys a little more closely. Now if he could just see his way clear of these useless and evil COG offshoots.

    All they do is recycle members. No good is done, no suffering relieved, no love shown. It’s all us vs. them, send your money to us.


  5. bilbo;

    I agree with you totally…..who is walking among us that is of a humble approach (like Christ’s example”) we welcome you and your thoughts. And, yes, I would be
    willing to take part in a class action suit to recover at least some of my losses.


    1. Not sure how to validate these member’s departure, maybe if one of them went public. For now, I’m reasonably sure of the accuracy of these reports or I would not have posted them.

      I’ve also received a report that Ralph Dowd’s departure has had an impact with other unnamed Cincinnati area members deciding to leave as well.


  6. I find it ironic that Mr. gray found fault with Dave Pack for doing the same things Ron Weinland was doing and had done for years. But, I guess, that was the point of him leaving. Better late than never.

    BTW – please don’t white wash all COG’s with the same brush. There are MANY independent COG groups out there that keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days, but yet, do not have the stringent membership rules that some of the larger COG’s do. Even though we are a “splinter group”, we don’t have much in common with how we run things (you’ll be happy to note our minister never touches the money and gets paid less than most of our members). For those in PKG in the Cincinnati area (I hope, if you left already, you are reading this) and those in other areas, we are an independent Sabbath keeping congregation, with an open door policy. We have guests or new people quite often, so feel free to stop in and visit anytime you wish, especially if you are looking for a new church home. No pressure. No pre-qualifications, or interview necessary. We have an “open door” policy. If you are outside the Cincinnati area, we live stream the sermon on the Sabbath. Please visit our website; http://www.cogcincinnati.org/ and for live streaming, go to; http://www.cogcincinnati.org/pages/sermons.asp?DisplayCC=true. We meet at 2:00 on the Sabbath and our “live streaming” services at start 3:00.

    And for those of you still poo-pooing the COG’s, our congregation actually helps people outside of our church! My favorite activity is “Camp Outreach, a natural outgrowth of the emphasis that Common Ground Christian Ministries places on loving our neighbors, is a camp with a purpose. Young adults, and people of all ages, come together to make improvements on properties owned by widows who are no longer physically or financially able to handle the repairs themselves. Camps have been held yearly in Georgetown, Kentucky, Pascagoula, Mississippi; Plainfield, Indiana,Chattanooga, Tennessee and Olivehurst, California. They range in length from one day to one week.” Info can be found at; http://www.ntevangelism.org/outreach.html


  7. Unfortunately, Linda, your COG splinter group is a rare exception. Kudos for breaking the mold! I wish your congregation all the best. I hope your efforts are producing new Christians and not just retreading old tires, so to speak.


  8. I heard Johnny had a slight heart attack when he was giving his last sermon and it was due to clogged ateries and had to have a stint put in. Has any one else heard this.


  9. Yes, that is true that Johnny had a cardiac problem. I heard he is on the mend. I would love to find out about the exodus with the elders!


  10. Why was this a surprise to Adrian Gray? This has been public knowledge since when, 2007? It’s no secret what Pack’s focus is. He combines the greed and pride of Ron Weinland and the cultish control of Gerald Flurry. He just hasn’t set dates yet.

    Gray should take a look in the mirror and ask himself why he’s drawn to parasites like Weinland and Pack.


  11. LindaP I’m sorry for going off on a rant. If you are in a honest humble and genuine community of worship where you are then that is awesome. I got frustrated because, like I said, every cog I have ever seen is run by charlatans, but that does not automatically mean all of them are like that, you’re right. The more egregious ones are without shame and the harm it causes is very very significant. That is what actually causes a lot of the anger (not just mine) – the victimization of innocents. I think that how you treat the weak says more about you than how to treat your peers.


  12. All COG splinters draw their income from tithes. If you don’t believe in tithes, don’t attend any COG splinter.

    I do not have the specific numbers, but as far as RCG, they are well staffed and almost all are salaried employees, there may be some volunteers.


  13. My mom been moobing a round here for 3 days but Laura and Ron bought her soul and she can’t leave because she owes them ,, what a damn shame people sell there soul . Ron an Laura I hate u .


  14. Hope Jeremy’s wife leaves him too – the Weinlands family being torn apart, left broke and homeless – that’s what they all deserve for what they have WILFULLY and KNOWINGLY done to others.


  15. NOTE:

    As much as I HATE everything about the PKG/Weinlands…I would never wish any illness or death on any of them even though they did that very act to me and my CHILDREN.


    I wish you a sincere Get Well Soon, and hope you are able to get back to a normal life post-op. You are a scumbag for supporting Ron, but everyone deserves a fair chance to change their ways and repent. “God” bless you…


  16. Ava, I wouldn’t wish illness or death on them either – but hey, if they died or got sick I’d just shrug and say ‘Karma’s a bitch’ and smile. But I do hope their family is ripped apart, and they loose everything – their home, their income. It would be fitting that Ron and Laura become destitute and stay that way for the rest of their days. That would be justice.

    There are worse, much worse, types of evil than the Weinlands – but evil is evil.


  17. So true, Kirrily.

    But it is sure easy to hate all these COGS, especially when they say THIS about the Boston Bombings…(take it away, Rod Meredith!)…

    “But the lesson we need to think about here is that we have warned you again and again that—unless America and the British-descended peoples turn to the God of the Bible, He will severely punish our peoples for our own good.”

    Read that again. “FOR OUR OWN GOOD.” GOD murdered an 8 YEAR OLD BOY FOR HIS/OUR OWN GOOD? TELL THAT TO MARTIN RICHARD’S PARENTS, RODERICK….was their son;s murder for THEIR ‘good?” Do you think they are going to sit back and go, “Oh my! our son was slaughtered…better go join a COG an start tithing!” JUST HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THEY WILL “LIKE” GOD AFTER HE MURDERS THEIR SON?

    All COGs = filth…


  18. Kirrily, you are now a parent, and you now know just how deeply and completely you love your son and would do anything for him, just as I would for my two daughters. ANYTHING to save them or keep them safe. Imagine Meredith saying that sh*t to your face if you experienced what Martin Richard’s family experienced…Well…Weinland said essentially the SAME thing when he cursed anyone coming to this blog to DEATH, and counselled him members to pray for the swift destruction of the world in order to hasten his prophecies.

    Harrell/Wrozek/etc…they are all scum…but Weinland is special. he deserves a special place in Hell if there is such a thing, uttering death threats against children via Apocalypse…


  19. Thats very nice of you Avalo …….. I’d just tell him to go to hell, would’nt waste my time. ( sounds like the bastard is half way there anyway ) Maybe he got sick cause he’s preaching bulls&it ?
    Remember when Ron viciously told the older members not to attend the feasts ? He and Johnny, did’nt wish them a “get-well”, nah, for their money, they were told not to show ! ( thats so mean )

    As for Adrien and Dave Pack’s ” Pack of Dogs “, If Adrien could’nt see THAT comming, he has no business being in a position to “lead” the people.

    Dave Pack ? What a deceptful, greedy ‘ol fool ! He reminds me of the nasty, cruel warden in the Shawshank Redemption, and I have about the same level of contempt for him.
    Why do these so-called Ministers act like the most evil of credit company managers ? ……. insisting on ever increasing and difficult payments to them ?, and give back nothing, except problems for people , they never had before ?

    If folks are serious about their beliefs, they should keep their worship obligations just between themselves and their God, the “group dynamics” thing obviously is’nt working for them, and it gives some crook at the top, a chance to extort, exploit, excercise cruelty, and deceive them ……… all done in the name of GOD ? Does NOT make any sense, especially when they leave one snake-pit, and start looking around for another ?


  20. Yes Ava, as a parent I understand so much more in that regard – the love is totally consuming isnt it – he is walking up a storm these days! I’m kept on my toes!


  21. Linda,

    I hope your church doesn’t drag out Herbert Armstrong and use him as one of your props. You don’t do that do you?
    He was a piss poor example of a man and as a father. A ragged piece of crap as far as humans go.


  22. When you look at Corey and when I look at my daughters….oh, that feeling! 🙂

    Ronald Weinland also has kids. The fact that he was capable of wishing OUR children to die shows what a failure of a non-father he is. No father wants someone else’s kids to die if he truly loves his own…

    Harrell too, no matter how old, is also someone’s SON…I can’t want his death…I can;t bring myself to wish that kind of misery on his MOTHER…alive or in spirit or in her memory…


  23. But what if you had a child that was evil? That tortured animals, that raped, that stole from poor people, that wished death and world destruction on others? I don’t know – I hate to think…..


  24. New Post on Ron’s website. Dated May 1, 2013.

    “One war is over the last one is about to begin”

    And I thought today was April 30th???


  25. Any cog’s that still keep the sabbath & Holy Days are of their father HERBIE. People read your bibles. Those requirements ended at the cross. The only requirement for salvation is the one who died so you won’t have to. If any church believes you earn salvation through keeping old laws and regulations. RUN away as fast as you can. Good works won’t get you there, but Christ will!!


  26. James, no we don’t “drag out Herbert Armstrong and use him as one of your props”. As a matter of fact, I do not recall his name ever being mentioned. I think we all realize he was just a man, and like you said, not a good example in many areas of his life.

    Excog – you certainly are entitled to your opinion, but I can guarantee you, I follow God to the best of my ability, not what a man, who has been dead 30, years once said.


    1. Some who have left PKG have become atheistic, which is understandable considering the circumstances. Others insist that they are going to keep the basics of Armstrongism, sabbath and what not.

      There are groups practicing some form of Armstrongism which do not focus on prophecy. (What Linda describes is a departure from Armstrongism, as his “charitable” efforts were focused on showing off, as in the auditorium concerts).

      Whatever and where ever a departing PKG member ends up should be a choice they make with eyes wide open. And if they decide to join a group, they should keep their eyes open and be ready to leave an abusive or authoritarian situation.


  27. Mike (DDTFA): Good point!


    Sicko children are either born with a mental disorder, or made sick by EXTREMELY abusive parents. If you do your best and provide a stable, loving, ordered home…the chances of Corey being one of those sick children is EXTREMELY low. And even if he develops a mental or emotional disorder, we have science to thank for a WIDE variety of medications and options to help stabilize them and give them the chance to lead a happy, fulfilled life.

    We live in 2013…Corey has the BEST shot at a great life than any other kid his age throughout the ENTIRE history of the planet so far. People are throwing off religion and living spiritually. Gay men and women are being accepted as fellow humans finally, Bill Gates and many like him are eradicating horrible diseases from the poorest nations on earth, etc. Sure, we have a lot of problems, but at least in my circle of atheists and free thinkers, life is so incredibly good right now. Things are positive and moving forward no matter how scared Churches and the Media want people to be so they can sell us toy and false hope.

    I have been a father and an atheist for much longer than you, K, This does not in ANY way make me better or smarter or wiser. BUT, I can say that after DECADES of living this way…things have gotten better and better for me and my (mixed race) family. I can assure you that Corey has a LOT to look forward too, and so do YOU! 🙂

    I recently bought my oldest daughter her very first, real office desk to put in her room. She is obsessed with business and numbers and office supplies so I surprised her for her birthday recently and had a local office retailer completely redo her room into a little business center. She is JUST now a teen, and yet she is chomping at the bit to start her own business and keep records and wants to start doing my taxes for me!! LOL! She is not ready, but I let her help my wife and I a little bit with our taxes this year. And, I took her out an bought her some new sort-of business attire looking clothes to have in her closet so she can start feeling more mature and “accountant-y.” I never taught her to be this way, I just loved her a lot and told her to work hard at her passions. That’s all it seems to take to produce a happy and passionate kid who wants to go out into the world and be nice and do good things. Of course, it REALLY helps to have the superstar wife I have!!

    Sorry for the ramble, but you know how it is…a parent can’t help gushing about their own…


  28. And while I am on the subject:

    Not that I am the world’s best parent, but it seems to me that the kids who do turn into little sociopaths are the ones that are pushed too hard AND too early. Since I am, shall we say, in a rather comfortable position in life, my kids go to school that I myself would have never been able to attend when I was a kid. Not that they must for my ego or for appearances, but such schools offer an incredible opportunity for kids to work in small classes (5 to 6 kids), one-on-one with private tutors, and have access to cultural and educational opportunities only dreamt of by most others. One of the problems though with this system is that some parents have their kids so active the kids have ZERO time to be silly, immature little kids learning how to make their own way through schoolyard disagreements, having to go to school with a much wider variety of people which they may like or hate, etc. The little sicko kids? You can se them going in that direction. Over-structured, forced to become bilingual or trilingual in languages that have nothing to do with their environment, in ten sports and five fine arts, etc. NOT RIGHT to FORCE that sh*t on kids. Their parents are narcissists. Narcissists produce socio- or psychopaths if the kid isn’t already one by DNA. And the saddest part is that all this super-duper prep that they think is going to give these kids a major advantage in life is the thing that eventually destroys them and they go off and become much less than their potential.

    (Warning: the following is a shameless brag about my wonderful wife and kids!!)

    One of the amazing things about just letting kids go after their passions (in a focused way) is that they always seem to end up attaining the skills these horrible parents try and force on their unlucky kids. The parents that send their kids to my kid’s school are educated, multi-lingual, have (supposedly) sophisticated tastes and refined attitudes…and yet their kids turn from it all with such extreme hate. Where my wife and I differ is that we know that kids will chase after a lot of things passionately but then drop them rather quickly when they get bored, just like the rest of us humans! The key for us has been to make sure that all the things our kids pick up and put down are related to an overall passion or ‘thing’ that ties it all together. My oldest is obsessed with office supplies and the idea of business and ‘running things.’ She has switched form idea to idea, and from dream to dream, but it is always business or organizing that is the theme. So we are always encouraging her to develop business and organizational skills in a fun way to help he equate hard work and passion with her current/future goals. She is clearly going to be some kind of business person or administrator, so we let her administrate thing around the house.

    But in order to do so, she realized she must learn to speak Vietnamese and French, do math accurately and quickly in her head, know about world cultures (in case she wants to do international business) and so on, so we help provide a multi-lingual environment. I speak a few languages (poorly) and a couple other than English fluently (German: my first language, and Japanese. My wife speaks Vietnamese and Russian and French fluently even though her English is still a little ‘funky’, so my daughter(s) have been raised to see foreign language acquisition as something fun and uplifting and a normal daily thing. Thus, they have ended up with a solid command of the basics of many languages, something I could have NEVER forced them to do without killing their spirit. That whole idea, that they steer their life towards their ultimate goals in life, and not a fancy job/resume/social image has meant my kids have ALL the skills these sicko parents are trying to ram into their kids’ lives AND my kids are happy. They do all these things on their own, and my wife and I don’t have to “get” them to do anything.

    I used this to great effect on the younger one a few years back when she was completely determined she was going to “become” a Disney princess!! LOL! She was all set to be a princess and have a ony and a tiara and all that, so I informed her with great pomp and emotion that there was a Princess test she had to pass in order to become a Disney princess. She looked at me and eagerly demanded I tell her about the test and how to pass it!! So I explained to her that a Disney princess must be a good person, because she has many responsibilities and must recycle and clean her room and do her homework and so on!! LOL! A day or so later we were walking through the Eaton Center (downtown Toronto shopping mall), and she saw some litter. So she quickly picked it up and put it in the garbage and was overjoyed that her training to be a Princess was going so well! She has long since decided being a princess is not her life path (LOL) but she still picks up litter and so on and we have a little laugh about her “Princess Tests!”

    AND…she is still studying and speaking her Princess language (Vietnamese) on her own without any encouragement from me or the wife. She just does it because it is her passion now that she understands pretty much everything I say, and about 30% of what my wife says. That too is something we have incorporated into our relationship with our kids in a fun way, so as not to force them to speak, or make them feel that Vietnamese is a chore and we will be mad if they don’t learn it. The way I do it is to say in a rather loud voice something like: Tôi cần phải thực hiện hai trẻ em để McDonald cho cheeseburgers. Bất kỳ tình nguyện viên? – “I need to take a couple of kids to McDonald;s for cheeseburgers. Any volunteers?” I kept on doing this until one day the oldest one got it, and jumped on top of me saying (in Vietnamese) “I want A cheeseburgers! I want A cheeseburgers!!”

    yes, I am going on and on about my kis…but I guess what I am trying to say is…Corey will be fine if you give him a healthy environment, a ton of love, and make him enjoy being as good as he can at what he loves and/or being who he is. Chúc may mắn!

    (Good luck!)


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